Comments on: Leaving Church, pt. 2 http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/leaving-church-pt-2/ Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:21:17 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Arni http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/leaving-church-pt-2/#comment-643 Arni Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:29:36 +0000 http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/?p=220#comment-643 About that quote, I think it's interesting (and kind of ironic) how that person makes a point of saying that the fundamentalists are factually wrong, but evidently still accepts fundamentalist biblicism and creationism, not as their own personal beliefs obviously, but as the only alternative to unbelief - no wonder they don't want to be Christians. I see this quite a lot and it makes me sad. Not that people don't defect from more liberal theologies as well, but it seems like the either/or way of fundamentalism sets people up for a fall, literally. About that quote, I think it’s interesting (and kind of ironic) how that person makes a point of saying that the fundamentalists are factually wrong, but evidently still accepts fundamentalist biblicism and creationism, not as their own personal beliefs obviously, but as the only alternative to unbelief – no wonder they don’t want to be Christians. I see this quite a lot and it makes me sad. Not that people don’t defect from more liberal theologies as well, but it seems like the either/or way of fundamentalism sets people up for a fall, literally.

]]> By: Kevin http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/leaving-church-pt-2/#comment-289 Kevin Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:48:26 +0000 http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/?p=220#comment-289 Yep. But Augustine didn't understand that we must go with the "plain meaning of the text" and ignore mythological/literary elements. :) Yep. But Augustine didn’t understand that we must go with the “plain meaning of the text” and ignore mythological/literary elements.

:)

]]> By: Iohannes http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/leaving-church-pt-2/#comment-288 Iohannes Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:27:54 +0000 http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/?p=220#comment-288 The problems you cite are one of the reasons why I am led to think the church fathers are as relevant today as ever. They lived in a world in which there were major challenges to Christianity that the church could not easily ignore or sweep under the rug. e.g. as gets pointed out often in debates on creation, St. Augustine sounds rather modern in the The Literal Meaning of Genesis I.19.39. The problems you cite are one of the reasons why I am led to think the church fathers are as relevant today as ever. They lived in a world in which there were major challenges to Christianity that the church could not easily ignore or sweep under the rug. e.g. as gets pointed out often in debates on creation, St. Augustine sounds rather modern in the The Literal Meaning of Genesis I.19.39.

]]> By: Kevin Davis http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/leaving-church-pt-2/#comment-287 Kevin Davis Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:38:51 +0000 http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/?p=220#comment-287 Thanks for the anecdotes. More evidence. I should have noted in the post that these sort of intellectual hurdles are fairly new to the Church. Rationalism and historicism have long been objections to our faith, but their adherents were almost entirely found in the "intelligentsia," the "elites," and only rarely in the middle and lower classes. But, now, thanks to both the spread of higher education to all classes and the spread of information through media outlets, especially the internet, we have a whole society subject to intellectual doubts. The Church cannot continue under the delusion that we're in the 18th century or even the 1950's. Our catechesis need not be <i>reduced</i> to apologetics (heaven forbid!), but it must address these issues. Thanks for the anecdotes. More evidence. I should have noted in the post that these sort of intellectual hurdles are fairly new to the Church. Rationalism and historicism have long been objections to our faith, but their adherents were almost entirely found in the “intelligentsia,” the “elites,” and only rarely in the middle and lower classes. But, now, thanks to both the spread of higher education to all classes and the spread of information through media outlets, especially the internet, we have a whole society subject to intellectual doubts. The Church cannot continue under the delusion that we’re in the 18th century or even the 1950’s. Our catechesis need not be reduced to apologetics (heaven forbid!), but it must address these issues.

]]> By: kepha http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/leaving-church-pt-2/#comment-286 kepha Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:29:38 +0000 http://dogmatics.wordpress.com/?p=220#comment-286 Amen! Several months ago I talked with a co-worker who is a former Catholic, and he said that one of the things that he cannot bring himself to believe was that bread and wine literally become the Body and Blood of Jesus. In contrast to this, the social aspect was a plus for the Church, in his eyes. On another occasion I spoke with another co-worker who is a non-practicing Jew, and he told me that one of the problems he had with Judaism and Christianity was why God would allow evil. On yet another occasion, I was speaking with another co-worker and his friend, and they both insisted that science disproved Christianity, specifically that God was the author of life. Clearly, they said, it was the chromosomes! In my experience I also see that things like the Gospel of Judas, The Da Vinci Code, and movies like Stigmata make people begin to actually wonder about these issues, i.e., where did we get the Bible, why were some books excluded, etc.? Amen!

Several months ago I talked with a co-worker who is a former Catholic, and he said that one of the things that he cannot bring himself to believe was that bread and wine literally become the Body and Blood of Jesus. In contrast to this, the social aspect was a plus for the Church, in his eyes.

On another occasion I spoke with another co-worker who is a non-practicing Jew, and he told me that one of the problems he had with Judaism and Christianity was why God would allow evil.

On yet another occasion, I was speaking with another co-worker and his friend, and they both insisted that science disproved Christianity, specifically that God was the author of life. Clearly, they said, it was the chromosomes!

In my experience I also see that things like the Gospel of Judas, The Da Vinci Code, and movies like Stigmata make people begin to actually wonder about these issues, i.e., where did we get the Bible, why were some books excluded, etc.?

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